"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...

IIRC, horticultural oil will take care of both of those.

Sorry but that is not true. I bought Organicide (oils) and so far the
whiteflies are still on the plants, as are the spider mites. Neem Oil didn't
work either. It's been well over a month since I started spraying the
plants and so far so response. What did work, but can't be used on
Vegetables, is the Systemic I used on the flowers. That worked in about a
week. The flowers are clean. The veggies, stinking like cod liver oil are
still infested.

Insecticides do not work very well on spider mites because they are not
insects. Kelthane is a miticide that works OK, but I don't know if it's
on the market right now. It was taken off for a while because it
contained traces of DDT from the manufacturing process (maybe that's why
it worked so well), but I think it's back.

I am very familiar with Kelthane. I couldn't find anywhere online that sells
it. As far as I know it does contain DDT and is persistent where sprayed.
Two sprays and the mites would be gone - and stay gone! I've use it in the
past. I was told it's no longer sold in my state. The horticultural sprays
don't work on the SMs and WFs here. Perhaps their overuse by organic
gardeners has caused tolerance.

Wife's miniature roses had spider mites this year -- like every year. I
sprayed them with water (mites hate that), but what I did that really
helped was fertilized the plants. They were stressed because they were
nitrogen deficient. I mixed a generous pint of **** in enough water to
make 2 gallons (the capacity of the sprinkling can) and watered them with
that. Did that twice in one week. It must have been a little strong
because it burned a few of the leaves, but the plants took off growing and
once they were healthy the mites left. Don't tell my wife that I peed on
her roses. Later, I scratched a little superphosphate into the soil.

Amazing!


I've been using the same "liquid fertilizer" sparingly in my vegetable
garden this year. It's a lot cheaper than fish emulsion, or even 10-10-10
for that matter.

I noticed today that the tomatoes need spraying with a fungicide. Gonna
do that tomorrow. One of the "brown bottle" chemicals, because I think
Bordeaux mixture (I have that too) will burn tomato plants.

Bob

Marie Dodge wrote:

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...

IIRC, horticultural oil will take care of both of those.

Sorry but that is not true. I bought Organicide (oils) and so far the
whiteflies are still on the plants, as are the spider mites. Neem Oil
didn't work either. It's been well over a month since I started
spraying the plants and so far so response. What did work, but can't be
used on Vegetables, is the Systemic I used on the flowers. That worked
in about a week. The flowers are clean. The veggies, stinking like cod
liver oil are still infested.


Just plain old horticultural oil, like what you use for a dormant oil
spray on fruit trees. (I believe "Vlock" is the brand I have; I bought
it at Walmart when they were clearing out the garden stuff to make room
for Christmas stuff.) It should have directions on the bottle for using
it half-strength as a summer oil spray.

Sounds like you bought snake oil again. ;-)

Bob

"phorbin" wrote in message
...

No one has said it this way, so I will.

There are three integrated subjects: Pests, soil, environment. If you
ignore any of these in considering this year's problems you may be beset
by them again next year.

Right. That's why we try to use as much organic matter in the soil as
possible. Raise our own seedlings or carefully choose well grown, insect
free ones from the Nursery in town. Blood and bone meals are now too costly
for us so we switched to 10-10-10, surfer and Ironite. The west garden, like
the other two, had lush beautiful plants until the WF and SPs infested them!


With regards to the pests, clearly what you've always done has failed or
is failing miserably.
The people you've posed the question to have all given their perspective
and many responses have been quite correct.

They may not answer what you see as the urgency of your situation, but
you would be served better by following up on some of them as part of an
overall plan.

The one consideration I'd like to present with regards to your
particular insect problem is pesticide resistance. If they are
resistant, the only long term practical solutions, are likely organic
ones.

Which organic ones since Pyrethrum and the hort' oils don't work.

With regards to the soil, iron is a micronutrient and unless something
is seriously out of whack with your land, you don't need it.

It's needed because the natural high calcium, the high PH prevents plants
from obtaining it. This is a poor limestone clay soil I have to work with.
It's naturally poor in nutrients and high in PH and calcium. That's another
reason I stopped using the bone meal for phosphorus and woodash for potash.
These organic products were adding to the problem. The cost of blood meal
for nitrogen put it out of reach now.

If this
year's analysis says you do, kelp as a soil amendment should answer the
issue with relatively little work and with 60 or so other micronutrients
as part of the package.

If you are going by an analysis done in years gone by, you need a new
one.

I just had a new one. Everything was fine again this time but nitrogen. They
recommended 5 lbs of Ammonium Nitrate per 1000 sq. ft. of garden or 1 to 1.5
lbs per 100ft of row. I was happy to see the PH at 7. We have no idea what
that would be in an organic product.


In response to your comment about organic matter in the soil I'd like to
say that the healthier the soil, the healthier the plants, the less
tendency for the plants to attract garden pests.

I've heard that since the 1960s and haven't found it to be true. Insects and
bugs will attack any plant they find that's part of their food preferences,
be it healthy or sickly and stressed. To them it's FOOD or part of their
reproductive cycle. That healthy squash will be as quickly infested by SVBs
as the sickly one in your neighbor's yard. That gorgeous Impatiens will be
as infested with spider mites as that half dead one on your friend's porch.
Insects and bugs don't discriminate and have no immunity to infestation.

If you've been consistently using both pesticides and herbicides over
the years, your garden's soil has probably lost some or much of the
biodiversity that builds soil, and when you build up the biodiversity
with compost each time you use the poisons, you kill it again.

There was no poisons in that garden. Why would I waste time and scarce
money spraying a new garden plot that never had a problem before and just
laid fallow for 2 years? It was gardened for one season, laid fallow for two
due to my accident, and planted this spring. I must have already posted this
10 times already. The two older gardens became infested AFTER the new
one,... but not with SPs, just the WF. One of the old gardens is now
totally infested with WF. The organic sprays were useless in that garden
also.

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:

My husband has a leaf-vac of the "same brand" (pulled by a large mower)
but
a different model. He picks up all the fallen leaves and has for years.
He
had another one before this one, but it was too small. We dump them on the
gardens to rot down over the winter with kitchen waste, weeds etc. In
spring we start tilling the rotted leaves under. We do it twice and
something I do it a third time by hand with a spade shovel. Despite the
impression some have here we don't use insecticides unless there is a real
problem organics fail to handle... like the WF and SP invasion this year.

I think one of your problems may be you are tilling too much. That alone
will
lead to increased loss of organic matter in the soil.

http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/publicatio...s/sq_fou_1.pdf

Tilling too much or too little has no effect on insect pests. The recent
soil test showed plenty of organic matter. OM isn't the problem. Resistant
insects and spiders are. Pests are becoming resistant to everything we're
throwing at them.

I never even do any tillage (and for me, that's gentle forking) of the
soil
without
adding organic material.

Then you don't have the heavy poor fine clay soil we do.


The only upside of sandy soil is that once broken into cultivation, it's
easy to
handle afterwards.
I've created enough of an oasis of fertility that we found (when digging
for
the second row of raspberries a few year back) that a neighbor's tree had
managed to send one large root over 50 feet straight for the vegetable
garden.

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

"Marie Dodge" wrote

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote

Marie Dodge said:

My husband has a leaf-vac of the "same brand" (pulled by a large mower)
but a different model. He picks up all the fallen leaves and has for
years.

Why not pull it around in the spring too, when grass is growing well?
It'll give you green stuff for your pile. Collect spoiled produce thrown out
from a commercial establishment or 2.

He had another one before this one, but it was too small.
We dump them on the gardens to rot down over the winter with kitchen
waste, weeds etc. In spring we start tilling the rotted leaves under.

I'm not in favor of this, uncomposted carbon will steal vitality
from your garden for at least 3 months.

We do it twice and
something I do it a third time by hand with a spade shovel. Despite the
impression some have here we don't use insecticides unless there is a
real problem organics fail to handle... like the WF and SP
invasion this year.

I think one of your problems may be you are tilling too much.

I think you're right, but I have much the same problem and tilling is the
only way to get the material into the hard clay. It gets better each year
and my sight is toward the day I can do less to none.

That alone will
lead to increased loss of organic matter in the soil.

It does, but the ultimate goal is increased carbon, which is accomplished.

http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/publicatio...s/sq_fou_1.pdf

Tilling too much or too little has no effect on insect pests.

Yes it does, less is better. It's said that recently disturbed soil
requires twice the nematode count per square foot to be effective.

The recent soil test showed plenty of organic matter. OM isn't the
problem.

Have you asked the earth worms?

Resistant insects and spiders are. Pests are becoming resistant to
everything we're throwing at them.

They're not resistant, you've simply cultivated an inviting environment,
rather than an environment that's hostile because of natural beneficial
predators, i.e. BT, nematodes, beneficial microbes & funguses, or any of
these handy helpers:
http://www.basic-info-4-organic-fert...alinsects.html

I never even do any tillage (and for me, that's gentle forking) of the
soil without adding organic material.

Then you don't have the heavy poor fine clay soil we do.

Or has been working the soil long enough to have arrived.

The only upside of sandy soil is that once broken into cultivation, it's
easy to handle afterwards. I've created enough of an oasis of fertility
that we found (when digging for the second row of raspberries
a few year back) that a neighbor's tree had managed to send one
large root over 50 feet straight for the vegetable garden.

ah, just as I thought

Steve Young

In article ,
Jangchub wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:47:59 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


"Steve Peek" wrote in message
om...
Sorry Pat, I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to Marie's constant
whine & her inability to accept the help she asked for.

You mean her inability to pay for all the expensive supplements she was
directed to purchase rather than simply answer the questions she asked.


You were answered in fifteen different ways none of which you liked
and you started to be evidentally assinine and annoying to the members
here who have known one another for over a decade. Nobody told you to
spend tons of money. You were told to use epsom salts and black strap
molassas which is 8 dollars a gallon at any Lowes and epsom salts are
under two dollars for enough to do your whole garden.

Now, like I said, for **** sake, go away.

I'll second the motion ;O)
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
You were answered in fifteen different ways none of which you liked
and you started to be evidentally assinine and annoying to the members
here who have known one another for over a decade. Nobody told you to
spend tons of money. You were told to use epsom salts and black strap
molassas which is 8 dollars a gallon at any Lowes and epsom salts are
under two dollars for enough to do your whole garden.

Listen smartass. As for the Iron and insects and spider mites.... Every
time I try one of your cockamamie organic "cures" and it doesn't work you
get your panties in a wad. So lets start with the first recommendations that
I *DID* try that didn't work and work our way down... as each one doesn't
work you add another potion and another and another.... so far the Neem Oil
and Horticultural Oil and Pyrethrum powder did nothing but give the insects
and spider time to multiply like crazy. By the time I bought a
chemical-spray the plants were to far gone with the oils, and powder and
insect damage. Spraying the plants with Magnesium one of you recommended did
nothing to turn them greener as the insects sucked the life from them. I
have 3 sprayers and not one of the 3 could stray the idiotic flour mixture
recommended! All clogged the spray-head repeatedly even though I strained
the mixture twice. What an insane waste of my time. Then someone recommended
Black Strap Molasses and Mag'...... and low and behold within a day or so
black mold and mildews, whichever, quickly grew where the Molasses mixture
landed on the leaves. What organic magic potion will you and your buddies
suggest next? Oh wait,... I have the organic "Serenade" already, so I can
use that to try and control the black mold on the molasses .........




Now, like I said, for **** sake, go away.
http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Security is not what I have, it's what I can do without,,,

"Billy" wrote in message
...

I'll second the motion ;O)
--

Yeah, we don't want people to know how useless so many of the organic
potions here are - do we?

Marie Dodge wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...

I'll second the motion ;O)
--

Yeah, we don't want people to know how useless so many of the organic
potions here are - do we?


So, do you go to the nursery and ask the manager, "Where's the most
expensive and useless 'organic' products you have? That's what I want;
I'm gonna show those r.g idiots how full of shit they are!"

You're buying the wrong stuff because you want it to fail.

Bob

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge wrote:

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...

IIRC, horticultural oil will take care of both of those.

Sorry but that is not true. I bought Organicide (oils) and so far the
whiteflies are still on the plants, as are the spider mites. Neem Oil
didn't work either. It's been well over a month since I started spraying
the plants and so far so response. What did work, but can't be used on
Vegetables, is the Systemic I used on the flowers. That worked in about a
week. The flowers are clean. The veggies, stinking like cod liver oil are
still infested.


Just plain old horticultural oil, like what you use for a dormant oil
spray on fruit trees. (I believe "Vlock" is the brand I have; I bought
it at Walmart when they were clearing out the garden stuff to make room
for Christmas stuff.) It should have directions on the bottle for using
it half-strength as a summer oil spray.


You're right. Organic pesticides are indeed snake oil and just as useless. I
bought the mix for summer spray. It's called Organicide. It's made mainly
from fish oil and smells bad. The WF and SM don't mind the oil at all, even
when drenched in it. It has no effect on them. Neither did Pyrethrum. It
seems as each organic snake oil product fails another is recommend. Four
have failed now. I'm not keen on running through the large number that may
be out there, none working better than these that already failed. It
doesn't matter though since that garden has been abandoned. The plants will
be pulled up this week and all the debris burned.


Sounds like you bought snake oil again. ;-)

Bob

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" wrote

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote

Marie Dodge said:

My husband has a leaf-vac of the "same brand" (pulled by a large mower)
but a different model. He picks up all the fallen leaves and has for
years.

Why not pull it around in the spring too, when grass is growing well?
It'll give you green stuff for your pile. Collect spoiled produce thrown
out
from a commercial establishment or 2.

The kind of grass we grow makes almost nothing when cut. It's fine bladed.
It's not worth the effort to drag the huge thing around for the few pounds
of clipping he'd get. They're left on the lawn so we don't have to start
fertilizing it like our neighbors do to theirs. You keep removing the grass
and soon you have to start fertilizing your lawn. Fertilizer almost doubled
in price this year. Commercial establishments are not close to where we
live, and because of liability, will not give away spoiled produce. People
were apparently eating it themselves and not giving it to pet rabbits and
goats.


He had another one before this one, but it was too small.
We dump them on the gardens to rot down over the winter with kitchen
waste, weeds etc. In spring we start tilling the rotted leaves under.

I'm not in favor of this, uncomposted carbon will steal vitality
from your garden for at least 3 months.

We use it mainly for soil amendment, not as a fertilizer. It's needed to
break up the fine clay. I switched to chemical ferts this year. Because of
the high PH problem I can't use bone meal for phosperous/minerals or
wood-ash for Potash/minerals anymore. The PH finally came down to 7 in the
gardens. We can't get enough grass clippings or green weeds to make a good
compost mix. I don't keep livestock anymore nor do any of my friends so no
more manure. No more green cover-crops after that nightmare with winter rye
and clover. What's convenient where you live may not be convenient or
possible everywhere.


That alone will
lead to increased loss of organic matter in the soil.

It does, but the ultimate goal is increased carbon, which is accomplished.

http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/publicatio...s/sq_fou_1.pdf

Tilling too much or too little has no effect on insect pests.

Yes it does, less is better. It's said that recently disturbed soil
requires twice the nematode count per square foot to be effective.

And I read that exposing the harmful nematodes, insect pests, their grubs
and eggs to the sun and wind and cold in spring kills them in large numbers.
So more turning over of the soil is better. I don't buy beneficial
nematodes so that's not a problem for me.


The recent soil test showed plenty of organic matter. OM isn't the
problem.

Have you asked the earth worms?

Yes, they all said the leaves, twigs, shredded bark and chipped branches,
kitchen waste etc were delicious.


Resistant insects and spiders are. Pests are becoming resistant to
everything we're throwing at them.


They're not resistant, you've simply cultivated an inviting environment,
rather than an environment that's hostile because of natural beneficial
predators, i.e. BT, nematodes, beneficial microbes & funguses, or any of
these handy helpers:
http://www.basic-info-4-organic-fert...alinsects.html

They are resistant. Any Ag Agent will tell you about the resistance of crop
pests. Why do you think they keep developing new ways to fight pests? I
didn't create anything. God created it. It was woods until 4 years ago. This
is new garden that laid fallow for 2 years. It was never sprayed with
anything. It was organically fertilized 4 years ago with sulfur, compost,
blood and bone meal and woodash. The garden that year was fine with a
minimum of pests. It was very productive. No sprays were needed and none
were used. It's a shame the BT, nematodes, beneficial microbes and funguses
weren't pleased with these natural organic products. A real shame because
the earthworms loved it to the point the moles had it looking like a mine
field. What should I have used, something like 5-10-5 ?


Then you don't have the heavy poor fine clay soil we do.

Or has been working the soil long enough to have arrived.

This garden is only worked for the second time and never worked without
adding organic material. Each tilling or turning turns under organic matter
including partly rotted leaves, weeds and kitchen waste. Whatever is on the
pile on that side of the property gets turned under. Unlike you we don't
have sandy soil. We have a hard dry clay that's low in everything but
calcium and moisture.


Steve Young

"Marie Dodge" wrote in message
"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message

Tilling too much or too little has no effect on insect pests. The recent
soil test showed plenty of organic matter. OM isn't the problem. Resistant
insects and spiders are. Pests are becoming resistant to everything we're
throwing at them.

So what are your natural predator numbers like?

Do you have lots of tiny birds in the garden? I get WF each spring but
within a week there is not a sign of them because all the tiny birds feast
on them.

"Marie Dodge" wrote in message
"zxcvbob" wrote in message

IIRC, horticultural oil will take care of both of those.

Sorry but that is not true. I bought Organicide (oils) and so far the
whiteflies are still on the plants, as are the spider mites. Neem Oil
didn't work either. It's been well over a month since I started
spraying the plants and so far so response. What did work, but can't be
used on Vegetables, is the Systemic I used on the flowers.

Just plain old horticultural oil, like what you use for a dormant oil
spray on fruit trees. (I believe "Vlock" is the brand I have; I bought
it at Walmart when they were clearing out the garden stuff to make room
for Christmas stuff.) It should have directions on the bottle for using
it half-strength as a summer oil spray.


You're right. Organic pesticides are indeed snake oil and just as useless.
I bought the mix for summer spray. It's called Organicide. It's made
mainly from fish oil and smells bad. The WF and SM don't mind the oil at
all, even when drenched in it. It has no effect on them.

You have clearly worked very hard for many years breeding generation after
generation of hardy and spray resistant insects in your garden. In that
situation the more simple remedies that work for the rest of us clealry
won't work for you. You'll just have to put up with your problems.

I find that simple home made oil spray using kitchen oil kills what I need
it to, but then I don't want to have a resistant population of pests. If
your insects can breathe through a coating of oil, then yours have clearly
developed a snorkel breathing apparatus.

Marie Dodge said:

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote

Tilling too much or too little has no effect on insect pests.

It has a huge effect on soil biota, and that includes many BENEFICIALS:
ground beetles, tiger beetles, mycchorizal fungi, predatory nematodes,
etc. etc.

The recent
soil test showed plenty of organic matter. OM isn't the problem.

But just a ways up the thread you complained about it disappearing
quickly...then when you later said it was tilled *twice* and turned yet
again before planting in the spring, it seemed reasonable to bring
the subject up.


I never even do any tillage (and for me, that's gentle forking) of the
soil without adding organic material.

That's one of top tips right there...no matter what soil you have.


Then you don't have the heavy poor fine clay soil we do.

Yeah, but before I moved here, I gardened on heavy clay. Breaking
that was enourmous work. (Even though I was 26 years younger!)
The main part of that garden was broken with a tiller and 6 yards
of trucked in mushroom compost. And it never had anything but
hand tilling again. (It was divided into several long beds, raised
up on one side like a terrace, running across the slope.)

When we added a couple of beds to it, it was hand-double dug with
huge chunks of blue clay (some of the most solid chunks were hauled
off). Took all the compost we had. Set up a few raised beds and
never more than hand tilled them, either.

And never even hand-tilled without adding some additional OM.
--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

Hi All,

Sorry for the top post, Idid not want to wade through this long post. You
will find that a lot of products have been taken off the market, for one
reason or another. Mainly for supposed bad effects. I think you will find
that it wiil get worse. I surgest you find something that you can make or
mix yourself. Hope this helps you.

Richard M. Watkin.

"Marie Dodge" wrote in message
...

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...

IIRC, horticultural oil will take care of both of those.

Sorry but that is not true. I bought Organicide (oils) and so far the
whiteflies are still on the plants, as are the spider mites. Neem Oil
didn't work either. It's been well over a month since I started spraying
the plants and so far so response. What did work, but can't be used on
Vegetables, is the Systemic I used on the flowers. That worked in about a
week. The flowers are clean. The veggies, stinking like cod liver oil are
still infested.

Insecticides do not work very well on spider mites because they are not
insects. Kelthane is a miticide that works OK, but I don't know if it's
on the market right now. It was taken off for a while because it
contained traces of DDT from the manufacturing process (maybe that's why
it worked so well), but I think it's back.

I am very familiar with Kelthane. I couldn't find anywhere online that
sells it. As far as I know it does contain DDT and is persistent where
sprayed. Two sprays and the mites would be gone - and stay gone! I've use
it in the past. I was told it's no longer sold in my state. The
horticultural sprays don't work on the SMs and WFs here. Perhaps their
overuse by organic gardeners has caused tolerance.

Wife's miniature roses had spider mites this year -- like every year. I
sprayed them with water (mites hate that), but what I did that really
helped was fertilized the plants. They were stressed because they were
nitrogen deficient. I mixed a generous pint of **** in enough water to
make 2 gallons (the capacity of the sprinkling can) and watered them with
that. Did that twice in one week. It must have been a little strong
because it burned a few of the leaves, but the plants took off growing
and once they were healthy the mites left. Don't tell my wife that I
peed on her roses. Later, I scratched a little superphosphate into the
soil.

Amazing!


I've been using the same "liquid fertilizer" sparingly in my vegetable
garden this year. It's a lot cheaper than fish emulsion, or even
10-10-10 for that matter.

I noticed today that the tomatoes need spraying with a fungicide. Gonna
do that tomorrow. One of the "brown bottle" chemicals, because I think
Bordeaux mixture (I have that too) will burn tomato plants.

Bob