"paghat" wrote in message
...
In article , "Marie Dodge"
wrote:

Alas, I don't have your income and you seem frustrated that not everyone
can
afford organic gardening.

Is you joshin'? It's too expensive to not have to buy lots of harmful
chemicals for the garden?

What harmful chemicals? Organicide? Neem Oil? Pyrethrum? Malathion (the
cheapest).... I don't follow you.

Or do you mean you can't afford to waist money
on the rarely needed natural products (which tend to cost the same or less
than any other product for the same use) when you have to save funds for
lots of costly chemical swill?

Excuse me.... Malathion was one of the cheapest of the lot. The organics
didn't work. I tried them first as you already know.


On organically balanced garden with diverse plant species needs no
artificial soil ammendments and is less inclined to pest or disease
problems, incurring few costs.

Exactly! This is an unusual infestation in the one "balanced" garden of
diverse plant species.

A garden that is out of balance (probably
from chemical use) will be more rather than less susceptible to return of
diseases and pests (for many reasons, such as the fact that harmful
insects bounce back more quickly than the beneficial insects pesticides
also eradicate), inducing the "need" for further purchases of costly
harmful chemicals.

And yet this one garden has never once been sprayed since this is it's
second year of use. It laid fallow for 2 years after my accident.

In short, organic gardening is gardening on the cheap!

You haven't priced organic products then. Are you getting all your fish
emulsion etc. for free? Here it's $8.99 a small bottle -enough for one
tomato or pepper plant for the season.

Non-organic methods
feed into themselves -- expense builds on expense.

Yep! That's why I should have bypassed the expensive useless organic sprays
as soon as I saw the first insects appear rather than use them and let the
population build as it did.


-paghat the ratgirl



--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...

I am going to say this one last thing;

Oh for **** sake go away.



Why? Because I'm not a rabid organic fanatic? I see how you side-stepped the
questions concerning Ironite.

"paghat" wrote in message
...
In article , "Marie Dodge"
wrote:.

And it's not totally true either. My gardens are loaded with organic
matter, yet this year the insects in one garden are totally
uncontrollable.
I should have used a good chemical spray as soon as I saw the first
insects
and spiders in stead of wasting several weeks with organic oils and
powders
that did nothing. All they did was give the pests a good head start, to
the
point the garden was a total loss by the time the ag agent recommended a
good chemical spray. More organic matter will be added this fall and for
no
other reason than to help our heavy clay soil support veggies.

Sounds like you've never gotten past the idea that you have to dose the
garden with SOMETHING chemical and are dissatisfied with "organic oils and
powders" as an option.

How are they an option when they are useless? Why use them at all when
plain water would do the same thing? Sounds like you can't get past the idea
that they didn't work. If they worked the insects wouldn't have gotten out
of hand now would they?

Organic gardening is not about store products, one
ailse for the greenies, three ailses for the people who don't care how
much damage they do to the environment. All aisles are equally about
tricking people into unnecessary purchases.

And this has what to do with Ironite and the studies I can't find online
showing evidence it's harming people?

Organic home gardening is about balance. A butterfly garden intentionally
includes plants butterfly larvae will eat, and the adult butterflies will
get nectar and lay eggs. No one says "oh god the butterflies are eating my
garden, I have to kill all the butterflies!" though their larvae certainly
are eating there. It's about BALANCE so no one insect becomes so numerous
a garden is injured. You've obviously been using toxic chemicals so long
that you would have to learn patience as well as good gardening practices
to begin to restore a baolance.
You've killed foremost the BENEFICIAL insects so OF COURSE harmful ones
rush back into their ecological niches and to their favorite plants with
no natural predators remaining. The predator insects EVENTUALLY return if
you stop killing poisoning their, and your, environment.

That does not apply. Also what has it got to do with Ironite? You obviously
haven't been reading my posts since this is a NEW garden that laid fallow
for the past 2 years. The first year there were no insect pests. Why would I
waste money and time spraying anything on the plants? If there was this
magical "balance" there wouldn't be such an infestation of these two pests
in a NEW garden. That garden laid fallow under piles of leaves and garden
waste for two years after my accident.

A healthy balanced garden does not need chemical fixes.

What chemical fix? There were no chemicals used until after the insects
appeared and organic powers and sprayed did nothing... what does this have
to do with Ironite?

A healthy garden
will never arise from putting toxic chemicals into it. Every time you
dewscribe another problem that "forces" you to use poisons,

I think you have your posters confused since this is a NEW garden that had
never been sprayed with anything.


you're
describing the result of bad gardening practices which can indeed result
in an endless "battle" with "weapons" in the war zone you've established.

Huh? What are you talking about? Who are you addressing? This is a NEW
garden that lay fallow under leaves and kitchen waste for the last 2
summers!


My gardens are places of peace and rarely any upsets. I require no
pesticides whether marketed in the organic aisle or the harmful-gardeners
aisle. You could turn your war zone into a peaceful garden if you'd
restore an organic balance and stop re-toxifying the place every time you
get the negative results virtually all toxifiers get.

That does not apply. Also what has it got to do with Ironite? You obviously
haven't been reading my posts since this is a NEW garden that laid fallow
for the past 2 years. The first year there were no insect pests. Why would I
waste money and time spraying anything on the plants? If there was this
magical "balance" there wouldn't be such an infestation of these two pests
in a NEW garden. That garden laid fallow under piles of leaves and garden
waste for two years after my accident.


-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

"Marie Dodge" wrote

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote

"Marie Dodge" wrote

I'm in Central TN, not far from Nashville.

There's only one Nursery in our area and they more or less carry the
same stuff the big chains carry plus bone and blood meal.

I doubt that, though organic supplies are often more difficult to find.
It simply requires a little more searching.

Have you called these people? They seem to be in your neck of the woods:
Dicken's Supply, 814 Cherokee Ave., Nashville, TN 37207 (615) 227-1111
http://www.dickenssupply.com/SOIL%20...NG%20MIXES.htm

I never heard of them.

Isn't that what you're looking for? new ideas?

I'm about 30 miles from Nashville and don't shop there.

Put together your seasonal needs and make one trip? Perhaps they have a
truck that makes local deliveries? Maybe an employee lives down the street
from you? Get creative instead whining and saying it can't be done. Most
importantly, did you call them?

I'll call them in the morning and see what their prices are like. I would
need enough for say a 900 sq ft garden. I don't see greensand listed
there.

Adjust your glasses Marie, it's item #6 from the top of soil amendments.
What did they say when you called?

Here's another company I purchase from.
Biocontrol Network
5116 Williamsburg Rd, Brentwood, Tennessee 37027
http://www.biconet.com/index.html
Give Eric a jingle, he'll treat you dandy.
(800) 441-BUGS (2847)

That's quite a distance from here. I don't see soil amendments at the
site.

How about 'soil care'? close enough?
http://www.biconet.com/soil.html

We can't afford these organic meals anymore as they're $5 to $6 for
small bags and we have several gardens.

You need to find a feed mill that handles grain and livestock feed. A
50lb sack of cotton seed meal $13.75. About the same price for alfalfa
meal and close to the same for a 50lb sack of Fertrell green sand.
Though I'm still looking for an inexpensive local source for 50lb
sacks of feather meal and blood meal.

A 50 lbs sack of any of these products wouldn't go anywhere in my gardens.
I'd need at least 8 to10 50 lb sacks to make a difference @ $13.75 each.

Were you fibbing when you said 900 sq ft above? Methinks you are using
these products incorrectly. They are side dressings and mixed only in the
root zone when planting, or scratched into the ground around the plant
during the growing season. They are not used like spreading fertilizer on
the lawn.
Why give weeds a boost? Eventually they will improve all your garden soil.

Did you look up a few grain elevators/feed mills as I had suggested? Or were
you hoping I'd do that for you?

How large is your garden BTW?

Just a tad under 3,000 square and I use less than $100 of sack products per
season. I don't know why you insist on doing things the expensive way.

Aside from the house and gardens, it's all lawn and woods.

Lawn and woods, wow! what a great place to gather organic material. Do you
have leaves that fall? I pull this behind my yard tractor and easily gather
enough material to turn out 12 yards of compost annually.
http://www.drpower.com/TwoStepChapte...VFlashHowWorks

Steve Young

Marie Dodge wrote:

How are they an option when they are useless? Why use them at all when plain water would do the same thing? Sounds like you can't get past the idea that they didn't work. If they worked the insects wouldn't have gotten out of hand now would they?

Sounds like you bought a bunch of expensive "organic" snake oil. No
wonder you are ****ed! The point is not that you need to buy organic
products, it's that you probably don't need to buy anything.

(But check out an insecticide called "BT". There are several varieties
and they are *targeted* to specific types of pests, especially caterpillars)

Bob

"Marie Dodge" wrote

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote

"Marie Dodge" wrote

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote

Marie Dodge said:

They don't sell liquid seaweed where I live. I don't care to start
ordering things online because the shipping is often as much
as the items to be shipped.

Try nematodes for that relationship, then try finding live ones locally

For what relationship? ???

The relationship between product cost and shipping. You seem to refuse to
pay shipping, yet willing to spend for a wrong product. Example: Pat tried
to help you below, but something was wrong that

Yes, but some things are cheap at twice the price, and sometimes
shipping is nowhere near equal to the cost of the item shipped (even
these days).

Consider Maxicrop seaweed *powder* where you avoid paying to ship
water:

http://www.arbico-organics.com/1313001.html

Get it shipped by priority mail. It's cheaper.

The product is $14.75 and shipping is $11.50 = $27.25!

(I would have recommended The Eclectic Gardener, as a satisfied
customer, but they are sold out of Maxicrop powder. )
http://www.eclectic-gardener.com/maxicroppowder.html

If I ever play and win the Lottery maybe I can afford some of this high
priced organic stuff.

oh poor me
I guess you'll just have to kick back and retire from gardening.

Why should I do that simply because I can't afford the things YOU can?
Clue #1 - Not everyone has your income. :-)

You're joking? We are trying to teach you cheaper-better but you are
recalcitrant. Nothing works but what you have your mind set on

Here we are, off to Lowes again
I'm in Lowe's and Home Depot regularly and yet haven't seen any of these
organic fertilizers. Perhaps there isn't enough call for them here. Or
they're so expensive people wont pay the price. Twice I bought the
liquid Iron and twice it turned into a tinny smelling liquid once
opened, with white stuff like scale in it at the bottom. That was when
I switched to Ironite.

You're wanting to buy the wrong stuff at the wrong places and then
disappointed that you can't, or you get overcharged

I can only shop at the stores that are here.

Where? 100 feet from your front door?

I've given you leads and links to many.

There's a nursery that carries bone and blood meal and I think they still
have Fish Emulsion. It would be several hundred dollars to purchase
enough for our gardens. People are not buying these high priced items.
They're going for the bags of General Fertilizer and Ironite.

Probably because they are not familiar with the chemistry. Does that mean
you have to use it too?

What did you find out about the other places I pointed you to? How was
talking with Eric?

As others have pointed out, your problem probably is not an iron deficiency.
I agree, it's more likely a magnesium deficiency coupled with a nitrogen
deficiency as the summer wears on and the soil gets dry. Magnesium is
required for iron absorption. But hell, heap on the Ironite, at least you
can find that with your eyes closed and you'll feel better that you're doing
something.

Sprinkle some Epsom salt, rather than Ironite. Water it in and I'll bet
you'll see the difference this year. Prolly within a week or two.

Steve Young

Steve Young wrote:
"Marie Dodge" wrote

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote


"Marie Dodge" wrote


I'm in Central TN, not far from Nashville.


There's only one Nursery in our area and they more or less carry
the same stuff the big chains carry plus bone and blood meal.


I doubt that, though organic supplies are often more difficult to find.
It simply requires a little more searching.


Have you called these people? They seem to be in your neck of the woods:
Dicken's Supply, 814 Cherokee Ave., Nashville, TN 37207 (615) 227-1111
http://www.dickenssupply.com/SOIL%20...NG%20MIXES.htm


I never heard of them.


Isn't that what you're looking for? new ideas?

I'm about 30 miles from Nashville and don't shop there.


Put together your seasonal needs and make one trip? Perhaps they have a
truck that makes local deliveries? Maybe an employee lives down the street
from you? Get creative instead whining and saying it can't be done.
Most importantly, did you call them?

I'll call them in the morning and see what their prices are like. I
would need enough for say a 900 sq ft garden. I don't see greensand
listed there.


Adjust your glasses Marie, it's item #6 from the top of soil amendments.
What did they say when you called?

Here's another company I purchase from.
Biocontrol Network
5116 Williamsburg Rd, Brentwood, Tennessee 37027
http://www.biconet.com/index.html
Give Eric a jingle, he'll treat you dandy.
(800) 441-BUGS (2847)


That's quite a distance from here. I don't see soil amendments at the
site.


How about 'soil care'? close enough?
http://www.biconet.com/soil.html

We can't afford these organic meals anymore as they're $5 to $6 for
small bags and we have several gardens.


You need to find a feed mill that handles grain and livestock feed. A
50lb sack of cotton seed meal $13.75. About the same price for
alfalfa meal and close to the same for a 50lb sack of Fertrell green
sand.
Though I'm still looking for an inexpensive local source for 50lb
sacks of feather meal and blood meal.


A 50 lbs sack of any of these products wouldn't go anywhere in my
gardens. I'd need at least 8 to10 50 lb sacks to make a difference @
$13.75 each.


Were you fibbing when you said 900 sq ft above? Methinks you are using
these products incorrectly. They are side dressings and mixed only in the
root zone when planting, or scratched into the ground around the plant
during the growing season. They are not used like spreading fertilizer
on the lawn.
Why give weeds a boost? Eventually they will improve all your garden soil.

Did you look up a few grain elevators/feed mills as I had suggested? Or
were you hoping I'd do that for you?

How large is your garden BTW?


Just a tad under 3,000 square and I use less than $100 of sack products per
season. I don't know why you insist on doing things the expensive way.

Aside from the house and gardens, it's all lawn and woods.


Lawn and woods, wow! what a great place to gather organic material. Do you
have leaves that fall? I pull this behind my yard tractor and easily gather
enough material to turn out 12 yards of compost annually.
http://www.drpower.com/TwoStepChapte...VFlashHowWorks


Steve Young


Hey Steve,

Thanks! Great resources! I only knew about All Seasons.

http://www.allseasonsnashville.com/

Kate in Nashville

In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...

The number one cause of childrens overdose ending in in death is
'merica.

No child here has died from eating Ironite. They get the lead from old paint
and some toys from overseas.

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=120#
Ironite Story
Reprinted with permission of The Dallas Morning News 03/30/98
THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS
snip
Of particular concern to scientists studying toxic materials is their
effect on children. In the case of lead, for example, Dr. Weis said a
child's rapidly developing body mistakes the toxic metal for calcium.

Because the body needs calcium for growth, he said, a child's body
"grabs" and keeps nearly all the lead the child ingests. "Children are
basically little lead sponges," Dr. Weis said.
snip
Of particular concern to scientists studying toxic materials is their
effect on children. In the case of lead, for example, Dr. Weis said a
child's rapidly developing body mistakes the toxic metal for calcium.

Because the body needs calcium for growth, he said, a child's body
"grabs" and keeps nearly all the lead the child ingests. "Children are
basically little lead sponges," Dr. Weis said.
David Shields, a geologist with a Dallas engineering firm who has worked
on lead cleanup projects, said the key question for consumers is not
which forms of lead or arsenic are the most or least toxic. The EPA does
not make that distinction when it plans residential cleanups, he noted.

Instead, Mr. Shields said, the important question is whether consumers
can make an informed choice. "I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't use
any particular product," Mr. Shields said. "But lead is lead is lead."
------

It's a shame that you don't understand the consequences of your actions
or that it's not just your environment that you are degrading.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

In article , Jangchub
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:43:50 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:

Unless you can prove that to me, and then loan me several hundred dollars to
buy it - why push it on me? So far I've tried several organic things that
someone on these groups and forums told me worked and it was bullcrap. Then
when these expensive useless products don't work, you pro-organic fanatics
get ****ed off and insist they worked for their mother's neighbor's son's
father-in-law's cousin.........

Why didn't you just answer the questions I asked in stead of trying to push
your favorite soil amendments off on me? I already have several loads of
free organic matter to go into the garden this fall. How many people have
been sickened or killed by Ironite? Where are the statistics children are
somehow ingesting lead from Ironite treated soil? Where are the studies?
Very little Ironite is needed. You seem to think 50lb sacks are dumped in
the gardens. One coffee can full does one whole garden for the season.

I am going to say this one last thing;

Oh for **** sake go away.

Oh hee hee, i get it now, the Dodger is a standard issue troll! One of
those guys who never had enough attention from their mommies! He slipped
right past me with that good basic troll-trick of pretending to be female
human such as might deserve to be taken seriously for a minute. Cuz you
just can't overestimated human capacity for iggerunce and worth trying to
help such an "invalid" at least once before they're sent into the land of
the plonked.

Sometimes trolls are FUNNY since living in their mommy's basement & never
having been on a date, they have lots of time to think up puns between
posts. Punning is wayyy important to trolls and twelve year olds, but
Dodgy One seems to have only hit age ten. Since none of it's witty even on
childhood's level, I'm now only reading whoever responds to the trollings
as the perpetrator lacks even the usual low level of troll charm to waste
time reading. If you get witty on his ass I'll notice that though.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

"Marie Dodge" wrote in message

I understand. Where I live it's a poor droughty clay.

???? By that do you mean clay that is/was drought affected?

"Marie Dodge" wrote in message

I can only shop at the stores that are here. There's a nursery that
carries bone and blood meal and I think they still have Fish Emulsion. It
would be several hundred dollars to purchase enough for our gardens.

How much is it in the US? I bought a 2 litre container for about $12 about
3 years ago and I'm still using it up. I have about 3 acres of garden.

Marie Dodge said:



"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...

That's the beauty of a dry powder. Sits there on the shelf so you can
mix it up as needed.

How large is your garden and how often do you spray it?


Let's see... I used to use more Maxicrop than I do now. After 18
seasons of adding compost, mulch, and organic fertilizers, the soil
is still very sandy, but much improved from what it was, at least in
the top 18 inches. Below that, it's pure sand for at least 10 feet,
probably more. (I live on top of a fossil sand dune, which was
on the shoreline from thousands of years ago when Lake Erie-to-be
was much bigger.)

A good soak at transplant (I transplant everything other than corn,
squash, and beans). A light sprinkle a week or so later.

One or two foliar sprays during the season, all over. (This used
to be more frequently done. I've cut back.)

Spot treatments for any plants that "look like they need it."

I have 18 intensively planted beds (each roughly 4 by 8 feet) plus
one long narrow bed (20 by 3 feet), plus a herb area, and also
two beds of raspberries. Several of the garden beds get both
spring and fall crops. It's all worked by hand with a broad fork
(no power tillers).

The flower gardens (there are a bunch of them) might get one
spray in the spring, and any transplants get the same treatment
as the veggie transplants.

The garden is looking a bit sad right now, as we are hurting for
rain. Can't fix that with seaweed spray...
--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

Hi Marie,
Thanks, but still not a lot wiser.

Richard M. Watkin,

"Marie Dodge" wrote in message
...

"R M. Watkin" wrote in message
...
Hi All,
What is greensand.?


A mineral rich product people use in gardens.

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 19:55:56 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:

(But check out an insecticide called "BT". There are several varieties
and they are *targeted* to specific types of pests, especially caterpillars)

Her problem was white fly and spider mites, if I remember
correctly. Is BT effective against white fly? I've never heard
that it was, but it would certainly have been useful a few years
back.


Penelope

--
You have proven yourself to be the most malicious,
classless person that I've encountered in years.
- "pointed"

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 19:48:34 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:



If you're nice, I'll show you my pesticide collection. :-) Chlordane,
dursban, diazinon, nicotine sulfate, Cygon, lindane, all kinds of stuff
you can't buy anymore. Pretty brown bottles. The thing is though, I
try to see just how *little* I can get by with. (the chlordane and
dursban are being saved in case i ever have to deal with subterranean
termites; that's the only thing I'll use them for.)


Oh! Oh! Get an infestation of Argentine Ants, and you won't have
to worry about termites *or* fire ants!

No pesticides!

No worries!

Except for, you know, an Argentine Ant infestation.

(They *are* easier to live with than fire ants, but damn, if they
aren't the best little aphid farmers I've ever seen.)


Penelope

--
You have proven yourself to be the most malicious,
classless person that I've encountered in years.
- "pointed"