"paghat" wrote in message
...
In article , "Marie Dodge"
wrote:

Alas, I don't have your income and you seem frustrated that not everyone
can
afford organic gardening.

Is you joshin'? It's too expensive to not have to buy lots of harmful
chemicals for the garden? Or do you mean you can't afford to waist money
on the rarely needed natural products (which tend to cost the same or less
than any other product for the same use) when you have to save funds for
lots of costly chemical swill?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I posted the prices of organic
products from the Co-Op store. What chemical swill are you talking about?
The Organic oils and Soaps? Pyrethrum? All those expensive products I
tried that didn't work?


On organically balanced garden with diverse plant species needs no
artificial soil ammendments and is less inclined to pest or disease
problems, incurring few costs.

In your fanatical dreams. Balanced gardens occur in Nature, not in a bean
patch or tomato patch. Pests will be attracted to any plant they use as food
or for reproduction, be that plant healthy or sickly. You need to do some
studying on crop pests. A sickly plant will succumb faster than a healthy
one. That's the only difference.

A garden that is out of balance (probably
from chemical use) will be more rather than less susceptible to return of
diseases and pests (for many reasons, such as the fact that harmful
insects bounce back more quickly than the beneficial insects pesticides
also eradicate), inducing the "need" for further purchases of costly
harmful chemicals.

And useless Organic pesticides that don't work. Agreed, that's why these
gardens were not sprayed with chemicals untill everything else had been
tried.


In short, organic gardening is gardening on the cheap! Non-organic methods
feed into themselves -- expense builds on expense.

LOL!!!! Those products are cheap? Now I know you're dreaming or have stock
in one of the Co's that produce this stuff! A measly 4 lb bag of Kelp Meal
was $17.99, say $18.00 or almost $130 to do my gardens. And that's just for
the Kelp Meal........ you must live in lala land or are very wealthy.


-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

"Marie Dodge" wrote

"paghat" wrote

In short, organic gardening is gardening on the cheap! Non-organic
methods
feed into themselves -- expense builds on expense.

LOL!!!! Those products are cheap? Now I know you're dreaming or have
stock in one of the Co's that produce this stuff!
A measly 4 lb bag of Kelp Meal was $17.99, say $18.00
or almost $130 to do my gardens. And that's just for the Kelp
Meal........ you must live in lala land or are very wealthy.

You use the products incorrectly and you insist on buying the most expensive
(organically certified). I buy kelp at a feed mill for under $1 a pound. I
garden 3 times the space you do and my annual sack cost is under $100. What
is it that I'm doing wrong?

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...

For someone who has gardened since the beginning of tiime, your garden
sure does suck.

Of course it does. I listened to you organic fanatics instead of calling my
ag agent as soon as the pests appeared instead of giving them all those
weeks to reproduce.

I don't use any pesticides, organic or synthetic and
I have positively no problems.

Because you have no spider mites and whitefly in your gardens. I had no
problems before this summer either.

Snip your foaming drooling blather................. SNIP!

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" wrote in message


You're right. Organic pesticides are indeed snake oil and just as
useless. I bought the mix for summer spray. It's called Organicide. It's
made mainly from fish oil and smells bad. The WF and SM don't mind the
oil at all, even when drenched in it. It has no effect on them.

You have clearly worked very hard for many years breeding generation after
generation of hardy and spray resistant insects in your garden.

You have clearly decided you know what happened on this property rather than
accept the painful truth. This is the first year these pests have been seen
in my and my neighbors gardens. No one sprayed anthing here other than
organic bacterial worm killers on the collards. That's just too painful for
you to accept isn't it? It rips your guts out and bursts you organic is
magic bubble.

In that
situation the more simple remedies that work for the rest of us clealry
won't work for you. You'll just have to put up with your problems.

So the Organic Dipel dust did all this damage.... my, my!


I find that simple home made oil spray using kitchen oil kills what I need
it to, but then I don't want to have a resistant population of pests. If
your insects can breathe through a coating of oil, then yours have clearly
developed a snorkel breathing apparatus.

And all from that Organic Dipel Dust on the collards..... gotcha!

"R M. Watkin" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

Sorry for the top post, Idid not want to wade through this long post. You
will find that a lot of products have been taken off the market, for one
reason or another. Mainly for supposed bad effects. I think you will find
that it wiil get worse. I surgest you find something that you can make or
mix yourself. Hope this helps you.


It doesn't matter since from what I've read most of the chemical
insecticides don't work any better than the organic pesticides out there.
The only one I ever found to work is the Dipel dust on the collards. The
pests today have good immunity to most pesticides because of all the
chemical spraying by farmers and nurserymen over the years. This problem
started back over 30 or 40 years ago. Crops were drenched in pesticides. I
well remember the planes flying over the potato crops spraying pesticides
and fungicides that made us cough and choke. Now this is the fallout. I was
sure the oils would work and was really surprised when they did not. Those
here who so smugly brag they're gardens aren't bothered by pests will one
day go outside like I did, and see pests that they've never seen before in
their gardens. Until this year we never had insect or diseases in our
gardens either.

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:11:28 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:



I am very familiar with Kelthane. I couldn't find anywhere online that
sells
it. As far as I know it does contain DDT and is persistent where sprayed.
Two sprays and the mites would be gone - and stay gone! I've use it in
the
past. I was told it's no longer sold in my state. The horticultural sprays
don't work on the SMs and WFs here. Perhaps their overuse by organic
gardeners has caused tolerance.

Kelthane is illegal. Are you a moron?

Do you think your childish insults will gain you credibility? They just
make you look like an immature idiot. Of course it's illegal in most places.
It works and it works well.

Insecticidal soap will kill
any insect you spray it on.

Gee, really. Mites aren't insects. They're spiders. Try using Google. There
are few things that will kill silverleaf whitefly or the 2-spotted
spidermite or farmers would be spraying insecticidal soaps on their infested
crops. They'd be saving millions of dollars a year, especially on hops.
Get off the organic sites and check out some of the University and
Horticultural sites. Get your head out of the sand.

Neem is not meant to kill mites. Read
the labels.

You call me a moron... "MITICIDE" is listed right on the label. Right on the
front of the "Green-Light" container. You don't even know what the hell
you're talking about.

http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Security is not what I have, it's what I can do without,,,

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
The EPA:

http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/lrpcd/wm/projects/135367.htm

Release of Heavy Metals from Ironite®

Ironite® is a common fertilizer made from mine tailings available at
any lawn and garden store. The presence of heavy metals in Ironite®
has resulted in its banning in Canada and lawsuits in the United
States due to the potential release of heavy metals, most notably
arsenic and lead. Bioavailable arsenic released from Ironite® is
dependent on its mineralogical form. Previous work sponsored by the
producer of Ironite® identified the arsenic bearing phase as
arsenopyrite with the conclusion that arsenic in that form does not
pose an ecological threat. However, a closer look with EXAFS has
identified the arsenic phase within Ironite® as scorodite-like.
Scorodite is more soluble than arsenopyrite, in fact, the dissolved
arsenic released from scorodite can exceed the US drinking water
standard. In addition to the data collected at Argonne National Labs
in February 2005 that identified arsenate sorbed to iron oxides as the
dominant arsenic bearing phase, secondary identification techniques
are currently being used to confirm this finding such as
thermogravimetric analysis and Mössbauer spectroscopy.

Where is the site listing the people, animals or plants injured or killed by
the use of this product? I Googled for 15 minutes and couldn't find
anything. Not even a cancer cluster around sites where it's used.


Contacts:

Kirk Scheckel, 513/487-2865
Aaron Williams, 513/487-2878
Christopher Impelliteri, 513/487-2872
Thabet Tolaymat, 513/487-2860
James Ryan, 513/569-7653
(EIMS#135367)

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 22:07:53 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


"Jangchub" wrote in message
. ..
Pags, she's not getting it. When I saw that list of pesticides...who
boy. She doesn't get that, if you nurture the soil with compost you
make for FREE or buy relatively inexpensively she wouldn't need all
the pesticides. But, alas, brick wall and all...

You're another frothing fanatic who doesn't "get it." All our gardens are
loaded with organic matter. Lying by YOU to further your "organic" agenda
wont change that fact. Stop using me as an excuse to get on your
anti-chemical soap box. Organic matter in the soil has no effect on crop
pests and plant disease.

Shmuck

That's exactly what you are for pushing an agenda with no scientific studies
to back you up, and not even knowing Neem Oil is sold as a miticide. Learn
to deal with the painful truth and stop frothing at the mouth.

http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Security is not what I have, it's what I can do without,,,

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" wrote in message
"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message

Tilling too much or too little has no effect on insect pests. The recent
soil test showed plenty of organic matter. OM isn't the problem.
Resistant insects and spiders are. Pests are becoming resistant to
everything we're throwing at them.

So what are your natural predator numbers like?

Tell me what preys on spider mites and silverleaf whitefly and I'll tell
you.

Do you have lots of tiny birds in the garden?

No "tiny" birds but the hummingbirds in the flower beds. We have the normal
size birds, plenty of them, and they do peck at the ripe fruit. The pears
and ripening tomatoes suffer the most bird damage.

I get WF each spring but
within a week there is not a sign of them because all the tiny birds feast
on them.

What tiny birds feast on them? Give me the names of the birds. Google them
so I know what they are. Also, how do they pick them off the underside of
the leaves without hovering in the air? Only hummers hover and they don't
eat whitefly. They're nectar eaters. I know of no birds in TN that eat
whitefly.

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote

Tilling too much or too little has no effect on insect pests.

It has a huge effect on soil biota, and that includes many BENEFICIALS:
ground beetles, tiger beetles, mycchorizal fungi, predatory nematodes,
etc. etc.

And these prevent insect and spider infestation how? Farmers are no-tilling
for years now and still suffering from pest infestation. With all those
beneficials in their soil how do you explain that? Also, those of us with
hard droughty clay either turn under organic matter or give up gardening.
We have no choice.


The recent
soil test showed plenty of organic matter. OM isn't the problem.

But just a ways up the thread you complained about it disappearing
quickly...then when you later said it was tilled *twice* and turned yet
again before planting in the spring, it seemed reasonable to bring
the subject up.

Of course it disappears quickly. The soil is full of microbes, earthworms,
and all those beneficials you talk about. It's broken down rapidly in a warm
climate in alkaline soil. More has to be added all the time. Once is not
enough. I don't have your soil type where you can toss some compost on the
surface and plant.

I never even do any tillage (and for me, that's gentle forking) of the
soil without adding organic material.

That's one of top tips right there...no matter what soil you have.

Then you don't have the heavy poor fine clay soil we do.

Yeah, but before I moved here, I gardened on heavy clay. Breaking
that was enourmous work. (Even though I was 26 years younger!)
The main part of that garden was broken with a tiller and 6 yards
of trucked in mushroom compost.

Then there's no comparison. No mushroom compost to be had here.

And it never had anything but
hand tilling again. (It was divided into several long beds, raised
up on one side like a terrace, running across the slope.)

You're trying to compare apples and oranges - your situation to mine.

When we added a couple of beds to it, it was hand-double dug with
huge chunks of blue clay (some of the most solid chunks were hauled
off). Took all the compost we had. Set up a few raised beds and
never more than hand tilled them, either.

We wouldn't have to till them either if had a truckload of mushroom compost
over the three gardens and was 25 years younger.


And never even hand-tilled without adding some additional OM.

I always add compost or some kind of organic matter when I turn the soil
over.

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" wrote

"paghat" wrote

In short, organic gardening is gardening on the cheap! Non-organic
methods
feed into themselves -- expense builds on expense.

LOL!!!! Those products are cheap? Now I know you're dreaming or have
stock in one of the Co's that produce this stuff!
A measly 4 lb bag of Kelp Meal was $17.99, say $18.00
or almost $130 to do my gardens. And that's just for the Kelp
Meal........ you must live in lala land or are very wealthy.

You use the products incorrectly and you insist on buying the most
expensive (organically certified).

You can stop the justifications. This was the only Kelp Meal to be found
and I must have made 20 phone calls. Are you going to tell me I can buy, and
pay shipping besides, for less than that? There's nothing on the bag that
says it's certified by any org. It's Espoma brand. Already you're accusing
us of using it incorrectly and the bag hasn't even been opened yet! LOL!!!
Funnier yet,... you're accusing the co that makes it of giving the buyer the
WRONG advice. Yoo Hoooo... try reading the bag.

I buy kelp at a feed mill for under $1 a pound. I
garden 3 times the space you do and my annual sack cost is under $100.
What is it that I'm doing wrong?

So you think I have access to your feed mill? There are no feed mills, as
such, where I live. The last feed mill now supplies the yuppies in the new
subdivisions with fertilizers and weed killers, lawn mowers and flea spray
for their dogs. Why are you assuming everyone has access to what YOU have?

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...

The number one cause of childrens overdose ending in in death is
'merica.

No child here has died from eating Ironite. They get the lead from old
paint
and some toys from overseas.

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=120#
Ironite Story
Reprinted with permission of The Dallas Morning News 03/30/98
THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS
snip
Of particular concern to scientists studying toxic materials is their
effect on children. In the case of lead, for example, Dr. Weis said a
child's rapidly developing body mistakes the toxic metal for calcium.

Because the body needs calcium for growth, he said, a child's body
"grabs" and keeps nearly all the lead the child ingests. "Children are
basically little lead sponges," Dr. Weis said.
snip
Of particular concern to scientists studying toxic materials is their
effect on children. In the case of lead, for example, Dr. Weis said a
child's rapidly developing body mistakes the toxic metal for calcium.

Because the body needs calcium for growth, he said, a child's body
"grabs" and keeps nearly all the lead the child ingests. "Children are
basically little lead sponges," Dr. Weis said.
David Shields, a geologist with a Dallas engineering firm who has worked
on lead cleanup projects, said the key question for consumers is not
which forms of lead or arsenic are the most or least toxic. The EPA does
not make that distinction when it plans residential cleanups, he noted.

Instead, Mr. Shields said, the important question is whether consumers
can make an informed choice. "I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't use
any particular product," Mr. Shields said. "But lead is lead is lead."
------

It's a shame that you don't understand the consequences of your actions
or that it's not just your environment that you are degrading.

What has that 10 yr. old article got to do with Ironite? It's not even
mentioned.


--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

Marie Dodge wrote:

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" wrote

"paghat" wrote

In short, organic gardening is gardening on the cheap! Non-organic
methods
feed into themselves -- expense builds on expense.

LOL!!!! Those products are cheap? Now I know you're dreaming or
have stock in one of the Co's that produce this stuff!
A measly 4 lb bag of Kelp Meal was $17.99, say $18.00
or almost $130 to do my gardens. And that's just for the Kelp
Meal........ you must live in lala land or are very wealthy.

You use the products incorrectly and you insist on buying the most
expensive (organically certified).

You can stop the justifications. This was the only Kelp Meal to be
found and I must have made 20 phone calls. Are you going to tell me I
can buy, and pay shipping besides, for less than that? There's nothing
on the bag that says it's certified by any org. It's Espoma brand.
Already you're accusing us of using it incorrectly and the bag hasn't
even been opened yet! LOL!!! Funnier yet,... you're accusing the co that
makes it of giving the buyer the WRONG advice. Yoo Hoooo... try reading
the bag.

I buy kelp at a feed mill for under $1 a pound. I
garden 3 times the space you do and my annual sack cost is under $100.
What is it that I'm doing wrong?

So you think I have access to your feed mill? There are no feed mills,
as such, where I live. The last feed mill now supplies the yuppies in
the new subdivisions with fertilizers and weed killers, lawn mowers and
flea spray for their dogs. Why are you assuming everyone has access to
what YOU have?




What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Kelp meal? WTF?

In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...

The number one cause of childrens overdose ending in in death is
'merica.

No child here has died from eating Ironite. They get the lead from old
paint
and some toys from overseas.

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=120#
Ironite Story
Reprinted with permission of The Dallas Morning News 03/30/98
THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS
snip
Of particular concern to scientists studying toxic materials is their
effect on children. In the case of lead, for example, Dr. Weis said a
child's rapidly developing body mistakes the toxic metal for calcium.

Because the body needs calcium for growth, he said, a child's body
"grabs" and keeps nearly all the lead the child ingests. "Children are
basically little lead sponges," Dr. Weis said.
snip
Of particular concern to scientists studying toxic materials is their
effect on children. In the case of lead, for example, Dr. Weis said a
child's rapidly developing body mistakes the toxic metal for calcium.

Because the body needs calcium for growth, he said, a child's body
"grabs" and keeps nearly all the lead the child ingests. "Children are
basically little lead sponges," Dr. Weis said.
David Shields, a geologist with a Dallas engineering firm who has worked
on lead cleanup projects, said the key question for consumers is not
which forms of lead or arsenic are the most or least toxic. The EPA does
not make that distinction when it plans residential cleanups, he noted.

Instead, Mr. Shields said, the important question is whether consumers
can make an informed choice. "I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't use
any particular product," Mr. Shields said. "But lead is lead is lead."
------

It's a shame that you don't understand the consequences of your actions
or that it's not just your environment that you are degrading.

What has that 10 yr. old article got to do with Ironite? It's not even
mentioned.


For those of you who understand English, I recommend
http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=120#

njaes.rutgers.edu/pubs/soilprofile/sp-v16.pdf

http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/lrpcd/wm/projects/135367.htm
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1016232.html

"zxcvbob" wrote

Marie Dodge wrote:

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote

"Marie Dodge" wrote

"paghat" wrote

In short, organic gardening is gardening on the cheap! Non-organic
methods feed into themselves -- expense builds on expense.

LOL!!!! Those products are cheap? Now I know you're dreaming
or have stock in one of the Co's that produce this stuff!
A measly 4 lb bag of Kelp Meal was $17.99, say $18.00
or almost $130 to do my gardens. And that's just for the Kelp
Meal........ you must live in lala land or are very wealthy.

You use the products incorrectly and you insist on buying the most
expensive (organically certified).

You can stop the justifications. This was the only Kelp Meal to be found
and I must have made 20 phone calls.

And here I thought you were looking for greensand
When did this idea of kelp jump up? The counter boy said it was good?

Are you going to tell me I can buy, and pay shipping besides, for less
than that?

Who said anything about shipping? I thought one of Eric's employees might
deliver it. Did you talk with him in your 20 calls? How about Dickenson's?

There's nothing on the bag that says it's certified by any org. It's
Espoma brand. Already you're accusing us of using it incorrectly and the
bag hasn't even been opened yet! LOL!!!

The only thing I've accused you of is wanting to spend too much money, then
whine and cry about your bad decisions like it's our fault.

Funnier yet,... you're accusing the co that makes it of giving the buyer
the WRONG advice. Yoo Hoooo... try reading the bag.

I usually gather technical information from less biased sources

I buy kelp at a feed mill for under $1 a pound. I
garden 3 times the space you do and my annual sack cost is under $100.
What is it that I'm doing wrong?

So you think I have access to your feed mill? There are no feed mills,
as such, where I live.

100 feet out your front door, or a 30 mile radius? I'd prolly prove you
wrong but I've stopped wasting my time doing your research. Have you
called Eric yet? or Dickenson's?

The last feed mill now supplies the yuppies in the new subdivisions with
fertilizers and weed killers, lawn mowers and flea spray for their dogs.
Why are you assuming everyone has access to what YOU have?

Why are you such a fricken ass whiner / crybaby?

What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Kelp meal? WTF?

Isn't the Dodger a trip? She just blows with the wind. She'll drive 30
miles to buy what the counter boy suggests, she overspends, comes up short
and can't otherwise afford to step foot out the door. And it's all the
yuppies fault mind you. No, no, methinks it's too many years ingesting the
'mine tailings' she calls gardening

Steve Young