Would anyone like some cheese to go with the whine?

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:



"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...

That's the beauty of a dry powder. Sits there on the shelf so you can
mix it up as needed.

How large is your garden and how often do you spray it?


Let's see... I used to use more Maxicrop than I do now. After 18
seasons of adding compost, mulch, and organic fertilizers, the soil
is still very sandy, but much improved from what it was, at least in
the top 18 inches. Below that, it's pure sand for at least 10 feet,
probably more. (I live on top of a fossil sand dune, which was
on the shoreline from thousands of years ago when Lake Erie-to-be
was much bigger.)

A good soak at transplant (I transplant everything other than corn,
squash, and beans). A light sprinkle a week or so later.

One or two foliar sprays during the season, all over. (This used
to be more frequently done. I've cut back.)

Spot treatments for any plants that "look like they need it."

I have 18 intensively planted beds (each roughly 4 by 8 feet) plus
one long narrow bed (20 by 3 feet), plus a herb area, and also
two beds of raspberries. Several of the garden beds get both
spring and fall crops. It's all worked by hand with a broad fork
(no power tillers).

The flower gardens (there are a bunch of them) might get one
spray in the spring, and any transplants get the same treatment
as the veggie transplants.

The garden is looking a bit sad right now, as we are hurting for
rain. Can't fix that with seaweed spray...
--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

Penelope Periwinkle wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 19:55:56 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:

(But check out an insecticide called "BT". There are several varieties
and they are *targeted* to specific types of pests, especially caterpillars)

Her problem was white fly and spider mites, if I remember
correctly. Is BT effective against white fly? I've never heard
that it was, but it would certainly have been useful a few years
back.



I don't know about the white flies, but I'm pretty sure it WON'T work
against spider mites.

Oil spray would help with that if the weather is not too hot.

Bob

Pat Kiewicz wrote:
Marie Dodge said:


"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...

That's the beauty of a dry powder. Sits there on the shelf so you can
mix it up as needed.
How large is your garden and how often do you spray it?


Let's see... I used to use more Maxicrop than I do now. After 18
seasons of adding compost, mulch, and organic fertilizers, the soil
is still very sandy, but much improved from what it was, at least in
the top 18 inches. Below that, it's pure sand for at least 10 feet,
probably more. (I live on top of a fossil sand dune, which was
on the shoreline from thousands of years ago when Lake Erie-to-be
was much bigger.)



Drip irrigation might work well there. The best garden I ever had was
in central Texas in 100+ degree heat and thin poor soil. I'd been
struggling to garden there for several years, and finally I set up an
inexpensive drip irrigation system and mulched everything that wasn't
leafy enough to thoroughly shade the ground itself. The garden just
exploded (in a good way.)

Bob

On Aug 22, 5:18 pm, "Marie Dodge" wrote:

Many things..............
Marie why don't you stop in your nearby sporting goods store and
buy a new fishing pole? The one you use for Trolling is Busted!
Very well done BTW. But your Bait is getting old and beginning
to smell.

Emilie
NorCal

In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote:

Would anyone like some cheese to go with the whine?


I didn't hear a whine. I heard a gardener talking about gardening
experiences. But when you came in, the cheese was loud and clear.

You should chat up the Purulent Primrose since you both seem to enjoy
gratuitous sarcasm and misstatements.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...

If you're nice, I'll show you my pesticide collection. :-) Chlordane,
dursban, diazinon, nicotine sulfate, Cygon, lindane, all kinds of stuff
you can't buy anymore. Pretty brown bottles. The thing is though, I try
to see just how *little* I can get by with. (the chlordane and dursban
are being saved in case i ever have to deal with subterranean termites;
that's the only thing I'll use them for.)

Agreed! I use as little as possible and only when nothing else works.


I haven't used any pesticides this year except on my apple tree (and that
didn't work very well, next year I'm gonna try sticky traps)

Fortunately nothing has bothered our pear tree.


As to the Ironite, it contains arsenic and other heavy metals that
accumulate in the soil. Use it once is probably OK. Keep using it, and
the soil arsenic levels just get higher and higher. Do you know what
Ironite is? Mine tailings from a toxic waste dump in Arizona (or maybe
it's New Mexico.) Instead of cleaning it up, they put it in 5# bags and
sell it to unsuspecting gardeners.

It was the only Iron I could find that wasn't a liquid.


Bob

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" wrote

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote

"Marie Dodge" wrote

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote

Marie Dodge said:

They don't sell liquid seaweed where I live. I don't care to start
ordering things online because the shipping is often as much
as the items to be shipped.

Try nematodes for that relationship, then try finding live ones locally

For what relationship? ???

The relationship between product cost and shipping. You seem to refuse to
pay shipping, yet willing to spend for a wrong product. Example: Pat tried
to help you below, but something was wrong that

Nothing was wrong with it. I didn't say anything was "wrong" with it.


Yes, but some things are cheap at twice the price, and sometimes
shipping is nowhere near equal to the cost of the item shipped (even
these days).

Consider Maxicrop seaweed *powder* where you avoid paying to ship
water:

http://www.arbico-organics.com/1313001.html

Get it shipped by priority mail. It's cheaper.

The product is $14.75 and shipping is $11.50 = $27.25!

(I would have recommended The Eclectic Gardener, as a satisfied
customer, but they are sold out of Maxicrop powder. )
http://www.eclectic-gardener.com/maxicroppowder.html

If I ever play and win the Lottery maybe I can afford some of this high
priced organic stuff.

oh poor me
I guess you'll just have to kick back and retire from gardening.

Why should I do that simply because I can't afford the things YOU can?
Clue #1 - Not everyone has your income. :-)

You're joking? We are trying to teach you cheaper-better but you are
recalcitrant. Nothing works but what you have your mind set on

I'm joking that I'm retired on a limited income? Why would I joke about
it?


Here we are, off to Lowes again
I'm in Lowe's and Home Depot regularly and yet haven't seen any of
these
organic fertilizers. Perhaps there isn't enough call for them here. Or
they're so expensive people wont pay the price. Twice I bought the
liquid Iron and twice it turned into a tinny smelling liquid once
opened, with white stuff like scale in it at the bottom. That was when
I switched to Ironite.

You're wanting to buy the wrong stuff at the wrong places and then
disappointed that you can't, or you get overcharged

I can only shop at the stores that are here.

Where? 100 feet from your front door?

Yes! The store must be in my driveway. ;-)


I've given you leads and links to many.

Haven't we been through this before? If someone dies and leaves me an
inheritance I'll buy expensive stuff and have it shipped.


There's a nursery that carries bone and blood meal and I think they still
have Fish Emulsion. It would be several hundred dollars to purchase
enough for our gardens. People are not buying these high priced items.
They're going for the bags of General Fertilizer and Ironite.

Probably because they are not familiar with the chemistry. Does that mean
you have to use it too?

It means we can't afford expensive supplements plus shipping.


What did you find out about the other places I pointed you to? How was
talking with Eric?

I have no way to get to Eric's business so why call him? Would he trade me
some soil amendments for some boxes of left over yard sale stuff?

As others have pointed out, your problem probably is not an iron
deficiency.

The Soil Test Report didn't list Iron this time so I don't know. The soil PH
is 7 and that was good. The Report says to add 5 lbs Ammonium Nitrate per
1000 sq. ft before planting (my fall garden).

I agree, it's more likely a magnesium deficiency coupled with a nitrogen
deficiency as the summer wears on and the soil gets dry. Magnesium is
required for iron absorption. But hell, heap on the Ironite, at least you
can find that with your eyes closed and you'll feel better that you're
doing
something.

I don't know who "heaped" it on, do you? 1 lb is "heaping" it on? You're
WRONG about Magnesium. It's 64+ so not recommended I add more.

Sprinkle some Epsom salt, rather than Ironite. Water it in and I'll bet
you'll see the difference this year. Prolly within a week or two.

WRONG!!!! I am not to add Magnesium. Only nitrogen was low as I suspected.


Steve Young

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" wrote in message

I understand. Where I live it's a poor droughty clay.

???? By that do you mean clay that is/was drought affected?

It called "droughty" because it doesn't hold moisture unless loads and loads
of organic matter are incorporated, which we do before using a spot for
gardening. It's a fine clay that's like powder. When dry it's like concrete.
It's really crappy soil. But once organic matter is incorporated and it's
fertilized, the plants grow like crazy if given enough moisture.

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" wrote in message

I can only shop at the stores that are here. There's a nursery that
carries bone and blood meal and I think they still have Fish Emulsion.
It would be several hundred dollars to purchase enough for our gardens.

How much is it in the US? I bought a 2 litre container for about $12
about 3 years ago and I'm still using it up. I have about 3 acres of
garden.

I'm talking about *ALL* the organic stuff I would need for *ALL* of our the
gardens.

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge wrote:

How are they an option when they are useless? Why use them at all when
plain water would do the same thing? Sounds like you can't get past the
idea that they didn't work. If they worked the insects wouldn't have
gotten out of hand now would they?

Sounds like you bought a bunch of expensive "organic" snake oil. No
wonder you are ****ed! The point is not that you need to buy organic
products, it's that you probably don't need to buy anything.

Right! The plants would have died faster and I would have saved some money,
better spent elsewhere. Meanwhile they would have been nurseries for the
breeding of resistant WFs and SPs to spread to nearby farms and crops.

(But check out an insecticide called "BT". There are several varieties
and they are *targeted* to specific types of pests, especially
caterpillars)

What would I need something for caterpillars when the pests are spider mites
and white-fly? ??? What organic product kills these 2 resistant pests?
They've already wiped out one entire garden.


Bob

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...

I don't know about the white flies, but I'm pretty sure it WON'T work
against spider mites.

Oil spray would help with that if the weather is not too hot.

Bob

Oil sprays do not work against either of these pests. I used Neem Oil and
Organicide. Both were 100% useless. Organicide did drive them off for a day
or so the FIRST time I sprayed, but they're back heavier than ever now. The
spray drips off the plants and they walk right through it like it's rain
water. Zero knock-down, zero residual, zero improvement.

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
Pags, she's not getting it. When I saw that list of pesticides...who
boy. She doesn't get that, if you nurture the soil with compost you
make for FREE or buy relatively inexpensively she wouldn't need all
the pesticides. But, alas, brick wall and all...

You're another frothing fanatic who doesn't "get it." All our gardens are
loaded with organic matter. Lying by YOU to further your "organic" agenda
wont change that fact. Stop using me as an excuse to get on your
anti-chemical soap box. Organic matter in the soil has no effect on crop
pests and plant disease.

Marie Dodge wrote:

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge wrote:

How are they an option when they are useless? Why use them at all
when plain water would do the same thing? Sounds like you can't get
past the idea that they didn't work. If they worked the insects
wouldn't have gotten out of hand now would they?

Sounds like you bought a bunch of expensive "organic" snake oil. No
wonder you are ****ed! The point is not that you need to buy organic
products, it's that you probably don't need to buy anything.

Right! The plants would have died faster and I would have saved some
money, better spent elsewhere. Meanwhile they would have been nurseries
for the breeding of resistant WFs and SPs to spread to nearby farms and
crops.

(But check out an insecticide called "BT". There are several
varieties and they are *targeted* to specific types of pests,
especially caterpillars)

What would I need something for caterpillars when the pests are spider
mites and white-fly? ??? What organic product kills these 2 resistant
pests? They've already wiped out one entire garden.


Bob



IIRC, horticultural oil will take care of both of those.

Insecticides do not work very well on spider mites because they are not
insects. Kelthane is a miticide that works OK, but I don't know if it's
on the market right now. It was taken off for a while because it
contained traces of DDT from the manufacturing process (maybe that's why
it worked so well), but I think it's back.

Wife's miniature roses had spider mites this year -- like every year. I
sprayed them with water (mites hate that), but what I did that really
helped was fertilized the plants. They were stressed because they were
nitrogen deficient. I mixed a generous pint of **** in enough water to
make 2 gallons (the capacity of the sprinkling can) and watered them
with that. Did that twice in one week. It must have been a little
strong because it burned a few of the leaves, but the plants took off
growing and once they were healthy the mites left. Don't tell my wife
that I peed on her roses. Later, I scratched a little superphosphate
into the soil.

I've been using the same "liquid fertilizer" sparingly in my vegetable
garden this year. It's a lot cheaper than fish emulsion, or even
10-10-10 for that matter.

I noticed today that the tomatoes need spraying with a fungicide. Gonna
do that tomorrow. One of the "brown bottle" chemicals, because I think
Bordeaux mixture (I have that too) will burn tomato plants.

Bob

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" wrote

Have you called these people? They seem to be in your neck of the woods:
Dicken's Supply, 814 Cherokee Ave., Nashville, TN 37207 (615) 227-1111
http://www.dickenssupply.com/SOIL%20...NG%20MIXES.htm

Isn't that what you're looking for? new ideas?

OK, I looked and they have a place closer to were I live. About 10 miles
from here. I pass there every other week. :-)

Put together your seasonal needs and make one trip? Perhaps they have a
truck that makes local deliveries? Maybe an employee lives down the
street
from you? Get creative instead whining and saying it can't be done. Most
importantly, did you call them?

No, our out of town company just left about 45 minutes ago. We weren't home
most of the day.

How about 'soil care'? close enough?
http://www.biconet.com/soil.html

I'm nowhere near Brentwood. That town is known as "millionaires row."
Median Income: $126,800.00. Average home $500,000. I'll check out the
other place.

A 50 lbs sack of any of these products wouldn't go anywhere in my
gardens. I'd need at least 8 to10 50 lb sacks to make a difference @
$13.75 each.

Were you fibbing when you said 900 sq ft above?

Together, the three gardens come to close to 1000 sq. ft. We're enlarging
two of them next summer, rock allowing.

Methinks you are using
these products incorrectly. They are side dressings and mixed only in the
root zone when planting, or scratched into the ground around the plant
during the growing season. They are not used like spreading fertilizer on
the lawn.
Why give weeds a boost? Eventually they will improve all your garden soil.

I'll see what the place closer to me gets.

Did you look up a few grain elevators/feed mills as I had suggested? Or
were you hoping I'd do that for you?

Yep! The closest one, Co-op, is about 30 miles from here. We have to go
there next week for the 5 lbs of Ammonium Nitrate the Soil Test showed was
needed. I have no idea how much organic amendments would be the equivalent
of 5 lbs of that stuff.

How large is your garden BTW?

Just a tad under 3,000 square and I use less than $100 of sack products
per
season. I don't know why you insist on doing things the expensive way.

How much Greensand do I need for gardens that come to 1000 sq. ft?


Aside from the house and gardens, it's all lawn and woods.

Lawn and woods, wow! what a great place to gather organic material.

We do! Loads of it but it's never enough. It vanishes into the clay soil
like nothing by fall. That's why we're now getting loads from the City mulch
site. All the free mulch you can cart away. They grind and shred fallen
trees and brush and other plant debris. We already got 2 loads. :-))

Do you
have leaves that fall? I pull this behind my yard tractor and easily
gather
enough material to turn out 12 yards of compost annually.
http://www.drpower.com/TwoStepChapte...VFlashHowWorks

My husband has a leaf-vac of the "same brand" (pulled by a large mower) but
a different model. He picks up all the fallen leaves and has for years. He
had another one before this one, but it was too small. We dump them on the
gardens to rot down over the winter with kitchen waste, weeds etc. In
spring we start tilling the rotted leaves under. We do it twice and
something I do it a third time by hand with a spade shovel. Despite the
impression some have here we don't use insecticides unless there is a real
problem organics fail to handle... like the WF and SP invasion this year.


Steve Young

Marie Dodge said:

My husband has a leaf-vac of the "same brand" (pulled by a large mower) but
a different model. He picks up all the fallen leaves and has for years. He
had another one before this one, but it was too small. We dump them on the
gardens to rot down over the winter with kitchen waste, weeds etc. In
spring we start tilling the rotted leaves under. We do it twice and
something I do it a third time by hand with a spade shovel. Despite the
impression some have here we don't use insecticides unless there is a real
problem organics fail to handle... like the WF and SP invasion this year.

I think one of your problems may be you are tilling too much. That alone will
lead to increased loss of organic matter in the soil.

http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/publicatio...s/sq_fou_1.pdf

I never even do any tillage (and for me, that's gentle forking) of the soil
without
adding organic material.

The only upside of sandy soil is that once broken into cultivation, it's easy to
handle afterwards.

I've created enough of an oasis of fertility that we found (when digging for
the second row of raspberries a few year back) that a neighbor's tree had
managed to send one large root over 50 feet straight for the vegetable
garden.

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.