In message , Kay
writes

On 10/08/2011 12:01, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:


I think what an experience such as Baz's shows us is that the softly
softly approach by politicians, who then instruct the police and the
judiciary, simply doesn't work. Back to the days of "if you can't do
the time, don't do the crime".

One-third of young men born in 1953 had acquired a conviction for a
relatively serious crime before the age of 30 (and we're not talking driving
offences here). But two-thirds of convictions were acquired by the same 6%
of offenders.

So the trick is how to identify the 6% of the 30% and deal with them
effectively, and not take action that will turn the 94% into unemployable
ex-cons rather than useful contributing members of society..

As to what is done about youths who
kicked around, bored and so forth, I wish I had an answer. Youth Clubs
used to be a solution but no doubt these are now deeply uncool.

And those that exist are having their funding reduced.

But it seems to me that there are two answers to this, firstly,
parents should always know where thir children are, who they're with
and what time they are expected home. And secondly, children have to
learn their place on the 'ladder' - being 'bored' or whatever the
excuse is, does not give them the right to be a damned nuisance to
others.

It seems to me that worthy ideals of giving our children learning
opportunities, coupled with probably over-exaggerated fears of paedophilia
and rather more justified fears of traffic, has led to a generation which
has lost the ability to cope with boredom. Entertainment has to be provided
by someone else.

Also, we have lost our tolerance for children. When I was being brought up,
the accepted idea was that you did most things as a family, and children
were expected to behave quietly in other people's houses. Then we moved into
an era when it became expected that children were not included in an
invitation, and you found a babysitter. So the need for children to behave
nicely lessened.

I'm talking about a return to
basic parenting where every family has to take responsibility for how
children are raised and for teaching them how to live within the wider
world without being a pain to everyone around them.

We are are more fragmented and mobile society - we no longer have the role
models. The first baby I ever held in my arms was my own. You can see all
around you that many people lack parenting skills - parents themselves need
help.

Another thoughtful and rational post, I can add nothing.
--
Gordon H
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In message , Sacha
writes

We have, also, a modern culture that requires the adults to stop
speaking when mini-Fred opens his mouth. In my day - (harumph) - it
was "hush, the adults are speaking". I say that now to my
grandchildren if they interrupt and their parents say it too. But some
young parents have looked at me as if I came from Planet Monster.

I well remember those days. When queuing in a shop, children were
frequently ignored, and adults served out of turn.
If you were caught talking in class or couldn't find your place when it
was your turn to read aloud you were sent to wait outside the
headmaster's door to receive the stinging cane.
We were all scared of the barber, for some inexplicable reason.
I find it a joy when I interact with a responsive child in a public
place, you can soon spot the suppressed ones who shrink away.
We live in more enlightened times now, thank goodness..
--
Gordon H
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In message ,
writes
Sacha wrote:
We have, also, a modern culture that requires the adults to stop
speaking when mini-Fred opens his mouth. In my day - (harumph) - it
was "hush, the adults are speaking". I say that now to my
grandchildren if they interrupt and their parents say it too. But some
young parents have looked at me as if I came from Planet Monster.

I think there's a fine line there, between "wait your turn to speak" and
pushing a child into a position where they don't feel confident enough to
speak because they feel they will be ignored and their opinion isn't valid.

(I tell Nick off for his frequent dismissing of Benjamin's comments as
'silly' or 'rubbish' - it's not a healthy way to encourage a child's
development if they don't feel they can speak out)

We made that mistake with our first daughter, and it took the second one
to be the rebel and become a confident person. When the lad came
along we became a lively family.
I'm afraid the elder girl still sulks at age 49. ;-)
--
Gordon H
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In message , chris French
writes
In message , Gordon H
writes

On more that one occasion where car theft has occurred within sight of
my property I have been asked "Did you get anything on your cameras"?

My answer is sorry, - they cover only my own property, to have a
camera covering public space you require authorisation.

Not correct (assuming they are on a domestic property)

http://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/faqs/da...public.aspx#f8
9CC45B4-580B-4FCD-98A2-278DE2D7446C

I stand corrected, but I have seen TV clips of a number of cases where
trouble has resulted from the use of cameras which overlook neighbour's
property, so mine are carefully aligned.

There are other potential dangers from using CCTV cameras, which I won't
detail here.
--
Gordon H
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In message , Bill Grey
writes

One only got the cane if one misbehaved, was cheeky or rude -
tendencies which needed to be corrected.

Not true, I'm afraid. My mate and I were sent for the cane (a
narrow springy rod) administered with relish by headmaster Hiles because
we had lost track of where we were up to in a read-aloud session.

One of my mates fared even worse. He had constructed a wooden teapot
stand in a woodwork lesson, and had done such a good job that he was
told to go and show it to Mr Hiles.

He knocked on the door, and before he had time to say anything, Hiles
had grabbed the cane and told him to hold out his hand!

It took a desperate plea before he was allowed to tell the real reason
he had been sent to see the Head!
--
Gordon H
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In message , 'Mike'
writes

I went to a Private School and the Slipper was very effective.

I went to a Grammar school and the teachers managed without the cane,
though one teacher did always have a plimsole on the blackboard shelf,
which he nave used.

But here is an interesting thought, to what degree did a Private education
'implant' a different, more adult/responsible 'mind' in the body? We have
quite a 'sprinkling' of privately educated people in our family and the
thought of any of them running amok as the looters and crowds have been
doing shocks us. The resulting qualifications and professions speaks
volumes.
Mike

I'm sure that the thrashings which out senior politicians received at
their various[1] educational establishments helped to imbue them with a
strong sense of superiority and an intense desire to get their own back
by bashing the workers.

Of course there is always the danger of them acquiring a taste for
domination or self-abasement, which could be embarrassing if it came to
light at the peak of their careers.

What was the name of that politician who was found deceased with an
orange in his mouth and wearing stockings and suspenders?
Some kind of eroticism involving partial asphyxiation, I assume?

[1] Not actually very varied - most are from the same stable...
--
Gordon H
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On 11/08/2011 16:25, Gordon H wrote:
In message , Sacha
writes

We have, also, a modern culture that requires the adults to stop
speaking when mini-Fred opens his mouth. In my day - (harumph) - it
was "hush, the adults are speaking". I say that now to my
grandchildren if they interrupt and their parents say it too. But some
young parents have looked at me as if I came from Planet Monster.

I well remember those days. When queuing in a shop, children were
frequently ignored, and adults served out of turn.
If you were caught talking in class or couldn't find your place when it
was your turn to read aloud you were sent to wait outside the
headmaster's door to receive the stinging cane.
We were all scared of the barber, for some inexplicable reason.
I find it a joy when I interact with a responsive child in a public
place, you can soon spot the suppressed ones who shrink away.
We live in more enlightened times now, thank goodness..

Fortunately most of the yobs round here are handicapped by their
trousers which require one hand to hold them up

In message , Baz
writes
Baz wrote in :

To add to the list of crimes, and there are so many,
Glastonbury festival last year he posed as an official and charged campers
for pitching, sold drugs and was a general fraudster.
In Dover he sold him and his familly as V.A.T officers or something and
stole vehicles, tobacco and booze AFTER the customs and exise had validated
the rightful owners right to it.

DNA is a powerful thing and the whole lot of them have left it for the
forensic people to have a field day. Finger prints have proved to be the
first line of evidence, the matching of DNA(a long wait) and finger prints
(immediate) will eventually prove just what this lot have done. I hope it
wont be long before they all of them are behind bars.

I thought about giving his name out, here, but there must be many with an
identical name and respected, so that would not be ok.

The police will not let me have access to date of birth etc. in case of
reprisals. As If.

When, or if, the scroat is found guilty this is when we will see just how
much we can take of this crass regard of protection from offenders.

Baz

I'm pleased to hear that he has been caught, and hope that it will be
some consolation to you to be aware of that. I would want to be in
court when he appears, and I guess you probably will.

It demonstrates that the best deterrent to crime is the certainty of
detection, and one hopes that he receives an appropriate sentence.
--
Gordon H
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and there are about 3000 men who felt that National Service did them some
good and enjoy the camaraderie of http://www.nsrafa.org/%5CDefault.aspx
some 50 years later

Are you a member?

Mike

--

....................................

Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive.

....................................




"Gordon H" wrote in message
...
In message , Baz
writes

And also why have a knob head serving with our patriotic volunteers, true
they are paid accordingly, but why have someone/s with you who is an
outcast, and you are defending your country. The last thing you need is a
convict with you.

Baz

I did two years National Service, and can assure you that those of us
whose careers were interrupted by N.S. were not the "knob heads".

Most of the regulars of our age and experience were lads who had become
RAF apprentices at an early age, and the impression I got was that quite a
few were getting away from bad homes, or were unable to get decent jobs or
training elsewhere.

Some Senior NCOs were the tops, especially those on the technical side,
but our Admin Flight Sergeant was a Neanderthal gorilla of a man.
When 6 new beds were allocated to our billet, we pointed out that all of
the beds were perfectly serviceable, to which he replied "Bring 'em out
here"!

He then proceeded to jump up and down on them on the billet steps until
they were bent, and had to be scrapped.

Knob head? For sure!
--
Gordon H
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In message , Kay
writes

On 09/08/2011 17:34, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:

The people in these riots and the man who attacked your
property aren't poor, they're not in real need of food or shelter which
IS poverty, they're just destructive or jealous or lazy or all those
things.

There is the concept of relative poverty - being unable to share in the
lifestyle that all around you take for granted, or seeing any means to do
so.

That is one of the points which a reformed ex-criminal made very
articulately on Newsnight recently.

But there's no excuse for looting and violence.

He also made that statement, he was not condoning the looting, merely
explaining it.
--
Gordon H
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In message , Baz
writes

I saw a senior police rep. on tv today and he is a wuss.

Use Water Cannons, Tasers, tear gas and anything else known to subdue the
mindless looters. It worked in Northern Ireland during the "troubles",
with the exception of the taser.

No it didn't! What worked was when our leaders, T Blair mainly,
realised that there was no military solution to Northern Ireland,
recognised the atrocity of Bloody Sunday, and started talking to the
enemy.
--
Gordon H
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In message , Sacha
writes

Society has *never* been equal, never in history, it's just not in the
nature of man or the scheme of things.

It has never been more unequal than it is today!
Executive pay rose by 30%, whilst many public sector workers have had
pay cuts in real terms!
--
Gordon H
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In message , 'Mike'
writes
and there are about 3000 men who felt that National Service did them some
good and enjoy the camaraderie of http://www.nsrafa.org/%5CDefault.aspx
some 50 years later

Are you a member?

Mike

No, and I didn't bother getting the Veteran's Badge.
--
Gordon H
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In message , stuart noble
writes
On 11/08/2011 16:25, Gordon H wrote:
In message , Sacha
writes

We have, also, a modern culture that requires the adults to stop
speaking when mini-Fred opens his mouth. In my day - (harumph) - it
was "hush, the adults are speaking". I say that now to my
grandchildren if they interrupt and their parents say it too. But some
young parents have looked at me as if I came from Planet Monster.

I well remember those days. When queuing in a shop, children were
frequently ignored, and adults served out of turn.
If you were caught talking in class or couldn't find your place when it
was your turn to read aloud you were sent to wait outside the
headmaster's door to receive the stinging cane.
We were all scared of the barber, for some inexplicable reason.
I find it a joy when I interact with a responsive child in a public
place, you can soon spot the suppressed ones who shrink away.
We live in more enlightened times now, thank goodness..

Fortunately most of the yobs round here are handicapped by their
trousers which require one hand to hold them up

:-)
I've only ever seen them pulling them down a notch to the prescribed
level.
--
Gordon H
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In message , Kay
writes

On 10/08/2011 18:41, in article , "Sacha"
wrote:

Society has *never* been equal, never in history, it's just not in the
nature of man or the scheme of things. BUT what has changed now is
peoples' sense of entitlement.

What has also changed is the level of inequality as measured for example by
the proportion of wealth owned by the richest few and the disparity between
the highest and lowest remuneration within an organisation.

True.
We are amateurs at rioting in England, we should follow the example of
the French, - they really know how to riot, and they even do it with
tractors and heavy trucks!
--
Gordon H
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